Dawn and Naomi Chat
The Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell Case

 

Episode Summary

Episode 1 – Setting the Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell Scene with Naomi Channell from Real

 

TRIGGER WARNING – This episode covers the brutal murder of Jodi Jones in detail, listener discretion is advised.

In this episode, Dawn chats with Naomi, a seasoned TV producer and host of the Real podcast, about her extensive career in factual television and her foray into true crime podcasting. Naomi shares her journey from producing reality TV shows to creating compelling true crime podcasts, including a seven-part series on the controversial case of Luke Mitchell and Jodi Jones. Naomi discusses the complexities and uncertainties surrounding the case, highlighting the questionable police investigation and the fervent public support for Luke’s innocence. The episode delves into the emotional and procedural intricacies of the case, setting the scene for a deeper exploration of justice and truth in subsequent episodes.

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

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Episode Summary

Episode 2 – Trial By Media: Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell with Naomi Channell from Real

 

TRIGGER WARNING – This episode covers the brutal murder of Jodi Jones listener discretion is advised.

In this episode, Dawn and Naomi talk about the controversial case of Luke Mitchell, a 14-year-old boy accused of murdering his girlfriend, Jodi Jones. They explore the details of Luke’s arrest, the media frenzy that followed, and the ethical dilemmas surrounding the release of Luke’s name to the press. Dawn and Naomi discuss the police investigation, the handling of forensic evidence and potential motives. They also discuss the continued sensationalist media coverage the impacts this may have had on Luke, and the broader implications of trial by media.

Listen to Episode Two – Through The Wall: ‘Scotland’s Most Hated’

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

Listen on:

Episode Summary

Episode 3 – Justice or Miscarriage? Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell with Naomi Channell from Real

 

TRIGGER WARNING – This episode covers the brutal murder of Jodi Jones listener discretion is advised.

In this episode, Dawn and Naomi go through some of the circumstantial evidence presented against Luke at his trial. They talk about the chaotic trial scene, the controversial decision to try Luke as an adult, the prosecution’s reliance on eyewitness accounts and a missing knife, the questionable identification process, and the timeline discrepancies that cast doubt on the prosecution’s case, and they discuss some of the lingering questions surrounding Luke’s conviction

Listen to Episode Three – Through The Wall: The Trial Begins

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

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Episode Summary

Episode 4 – Shocking Developments: Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell with Naomi Channell from Real

 

TRIGGER WARNING – This episode covers the brutal murder of Jodi Jones and contains strong language, so listener discretion is advised.

In this episode, Dawn and Naomi discuss the lack of a clear motive, the destruction of crucial evidence, and the public’s divided opinion on Luke’s guilt. Naomi shares insights from her extensive research, highlights what has kept this case in the public eye for over 20 years, and why there is a need for an independent review of this case.

Listen to Episode Four – Through The Wall: Seek Jodi, Find Jodi, Jodi’s Hiding

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

Listen on:

Episode Summary

Episode 5 – Persons of Interest: Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell with Naomi Channell from Real

 

TRIGGER WARNING – This episode covers the brutal murder of Jodi Jones, contains strong language and the topic of suicide is discussed, so listener discretion is advised.

In this episode, Naomi reflects on the pivotal fifth episode, where new persons of interest emerged, adding depth to the investigation. Dawn and Naomi discuss the DNA evidence, including the presence of a local sex offender’s DNA, and the overlooked peculiar behaviour of various individuals connected to the case, raising questions about the thoroughness of the original investigation. The episode also touches on the psychological toll on Luke, and his resilience in maintaining his innocence.

Listen to Episode Five – Through The Wall: ‘People of Interest

Listen to Episode Six – Through the Wall: ‘Luke’s Army

Listen to Bonus Episode – In Luke’s Own Words

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

Listen on:

Episode Summary

Final Episode – Update: Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell with Naomi Channell from Real

 

In this episode, Dawn speaks with Naomi Channel about the latest developments in the Jodi Jones and Luke Mitchell case. Naomi reveals that newly obtained trial transcripts have surfaced, showing inconsistencies with previously released information. While Naomi hasn’t fully reviewed the transcripts, she notes that some details may alter the context of the case. The discussion also touches on the divided opinions within the community, the impact of social media conflicts, and the upcoming parole hearing for Luke Mitchell.

For more details on the latest developments please visit to lmTranscriptdiscussion.blogspot.com

Please Be Advised – This episode may contain content that some may find distressing. As always, we advise listener discretion. This episode it not suitable for anyone under the age of 13.

Listen on:

Listen to Episode One – Through The Wall: The Case Against Luke Mitchell

 

Call to Action:
Please consider subscribing, rating or reviewing this podcast as it really does help others find us. It’s thanks to your ongoing support that we continue to be able to bring you Scottish Murders. 

 

00:00:00: Introduction and Welcome
00:00:14: Naomi’s Background in TV Production
00:01:02: Balancing Multiple Roles and Teaching
00:01:52: Naomi’s Interest in True Crime and beginning Podcasting
00:06:49: Naomi’s Experience in Podcasting
00:09:01 Setting the Scene – Luke Mitchell and Jodi Jones
00:11:25: Trust in the Justice System
00:14:25: Questions About Jodie’s Whereabouts
00:15:23: Luke’s Alibi and Meeting Friends
00:18:21: Brutality of Jodie’s Murder
00:20:03: Police Investigation and Handling of Evidence
00:22:42: Search Party, finding Jodie’s Body and Police Treatment of Luke
00:31:03: Naomi’s Reflection on the Case
00:32:29: Emotional Impact on Families
00:35:20: Conclusion of Episode One Discussion

 

Episode Credits

Hosted by Dawn

Special Guest: Naomi Channell

Produced by Erin Ferguson

 

Transcript:

Dawn: So, Naomi, it’s great to have you on the podcast.

 

Naomi: It’s so nice to be here. Thank you, dawn. Thank you for inviting me.

 

Dawn: Oh, it’s a pleasure. So, Naomi, can you tell us a little bit about yourself before we get into the details? Just about you, what you do, your other podcasts.

 

Naomi: So, I mean, I’ve been a tv producer for almost 20 years, which sort of gives away my age a little bit. But I’ve been doing that, and I’ve mainly worked in factual television. So everything from documentaries to reality tv shows, whether it’s, you know, orchestrating a wedding on don’t tell the bride in an alien cave, or whether it’s cast in the big Brother housemates, or it’s doing documentaries or working on salvage hunters or true crime documentaries. So I’ve kind of done a lot of programming over the years, and. Yeah, and now on the side, I do podcast hosting as well. And I also teach one day a week at a local college, and that’s teaching tv production. And now podcast production as well.

 

Dawn: Oh, well, no, make. My God, you’ve got a lot under your belt there.

 

Naomi: Yes. I don’t sleep very often. I do have two children, and I think they actually are the biggest job, so everything else just feels quite easy.

 

Dawn: It’s amazing that you teach it as well. You must be really passionate about what you do.

 

Naomi: Do you know what? I think it’s just that where I’m from, I live in Essex, and there’s not that many opportunities here. You often have to go into London, and sometimes we have students that the cost of a train ticket, which is extortionate into this local area. And actually, we’ve had such a positive response. And what I think a lot of my students have really gravitated towards, funnily enough, is true crime. They’re fascinated by the psychology. They’re fascinated by the why, not always the what. It’s normally the why. And I find that really interesting and really refreshing that young kids want to do that. So I’m here for it.

 

Dawn: Yeah, it sounds like it. What is your other podcast? You have another podcast as well? Did you start that one first?

 

Naomi: Yeah. So I actually got into podcasting because I live very close to the Lubbock family. So Stuart Lubbock was the man who was found in the swimming pool of Michael Barrymore. He had been raped and murdered, and I knew his family, and sadly, Stuart’s father passed away. And what happened after that is the battle for justice went on for such a long time, and it got nowhere. And there were arrests, and there was all this stuff, but there was also a lack of accurate information in the press. People went forward with Michael Barry more. They went forward with that narrative. And Stuart and his, you know, hit the fact he was a victim. He got kind of pushed to the side. So I spoke to the family, and I offered to do a podcast. They’d already done a documentary for Channel Four, and it’s called body in the pool, and it’s absolutely just mind blowing. And I thought, you know what? I wonder if we can do a bit more, because sometimes with podcasts, more people will speak because you don’t have to give their full identity. So I did a six part podcast series that did really well, and lots of the local press got on top of it. And actually, some of the national press did as well. And then it wasn’t long after that I spoke to Claudia Lawrence’s mum. So Claudia Lawrence went missing in two. Sorry. It was 2009. Sorry. That she went missing. And she was a chef from York, and she was walking to work one morning and she disappeared. And so I worked with Joan, her mother, and we decided together that we would try and do a podcast that would give people a little bit more information about her disappearance and what really happened. Because unfortunately, Claudia Lawrence was a single woman who was living a really social life. But unfortunately, what happened was the press, and there was a lot of misogyny in the way it was reported. They were focusing a lot on some of the relationships she’d had, and a lot of them had been with married men or she’d had, you know, a few boyfriends on the go. At the same time. She was a single, pretty woman in her thirties. You know, why not? Not necessarily the married man and stuff, but, you know, she had a lot. She had fun, and they kind of focused on that. And what happened was the quest for justice with her. It kind of got misrepresented. So a lot of people were sort of like, oh, well, you know, if you’re going to dabble with married men, you know, this is what happens. I actually read comments that actually said that, and I was so. I was so angered, obviously. No, okay, cheating, that’s. That’s a whole separate issue. This is about a woman who’s gone missing and has been taken from her family. And so I did the podcast with her mum, and that was that. That went really well. And then I came across this one. I came across Luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones. And I was looking for another case to do, and I went. I went online and I just started looking for cases that I didn’t know a lot about. And this one kept coming up. It was actually via Twitter. So I went on Twitter and I saw all these supporters of Luke, and all I could see was justice for Luke Mitchell and Jodie Jones. So my initial reaction was, okay, this has been a double murder. That’s what I thought. And then as I looked into it, I realised that Luke is very much alive and has actually been convicted of killing Jodie. And so I kind of. I nearly. I nearly stepped away from it. I thought, oh, well, you know, this is done. Why would I make a series on this? My. My whole thing is to look at justice. And the case got me. It was so odd. It was unlike anything I’d really ever seen before. I mean, there was this. I know, we’ll get into the details, but the whole case against Luke Mitchell felt very uncertain. It didn’t feel like a safe conviction to me. And I’m not someone that, you know, believes that all these people are innocent in prison. I do believe that there are miscarriages of justice, and there has been proven to be with Luke. I don’t know if he’s guilty or innocent. I have no idea. But the podcast and the reason I decided to do it ended up being a seven part series on it, is because the phenomenon that was kind of around it, all these people truly believed that he was innocent. And it was. It was incredible to see a group with tens of thousands of people signing petitions for him, a Facebook group, where people were literally giving up their lives to support this man that they’ve never even met. And I found that really intriguing. And my first true crime podcast I ever listened to was serial, and that was about Adnan Saeed and Hae Min Lee. And I know that almost kind of broke ground with true crime podcasting. And I thought, God, I wonder if this has got similar themes to that. And I’m not an investigator, I’m not part of the law network, but what I am is a storyteller. So I try and tell the story, and I told the story for what I saw, and I did luckily have access to a lot of stuff. And I know we’re going to talk about that, but that’s the reason I ended up taking that on.

 

Dawn: Yeah, well, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you. Why did you? Because I know you said a little bit about it in the first episode, but the same as me, I heard of the story. I suppose, like most people, I thought that he was guilty I didn’t delve too deep, and, you know, I’d always wanted to cover it. It was going to be one of the cases that I covered. But when I met you at Crimecon and you told me about your podcast and I listened to the episodes, you know, like you, I liked only want to do things different, not do it the same way again. And there’s just no way I could, you know, better it or make it come different. You did an amazing job.

 

Naomi: Well, thank you.

 

Dawn: And a fantastic storyteller, really. And the only thing I think of doing was to have you on and to talk about it, and that’s why you’re here today.

 

Naomi: Oh, it’s such a pleasure. You have been so lovely through my. Because, I mean, podcasting is still pretty new to me, and you’re really a queen in this area. So, no, I am at your service.

 

Dawn: No, I appreciate it. But I thought what would be quite good would be all the episodes I listened to, every single one, there was a jaw dropping moment when you were left with what the f. Is going on, what is happening? And I thought, you know, I know you said that you don’t like to give your opinions, and I try not to give mine either. But sometimes I wanted your opinion. I wanted to know what you were thinking and all these jaw dropping moments and all these things you kept telling, and I wanted to discuss it with somebody, you know, what the hell is going on with this case? So I thought it would be good to maybe go through each episode, and for people that haven’t listened to your podcast yet, they could maybe before we start talking about it, they could go and listen and then come back, and then there’s the discussion. So people are thinking the same as I was, that they wanted more. They wanted an opinion or thought. Perfect. It’s a nice combination.

 

Naomi: Absolutely.

 

Dawn: So that was my thought.

 

Naomi: Lovely.

 

Dawn: So shall we start with episode number one?

 

Naomi: Let’s do it. Let’s do it.

 

Dawn: So, in this episode, you just kind of set in the scene. You were telling all the facts. You made it clear that you weren’t going to give your opinions. You were going to try not just the facts. You told a wee bit about Jodie and Luke and what they were like and what they both enjoyed doing and just the events leading up to Jodie’s body being found. And then you start just at the end of the episode, you start to tell of Luke’s sort of isolation by police officers and him being clearly singled out immediately by them straight away.

 

Naomi: Yeah.

 

Dawn: So that was kind of what that episode was about. So, shall we dive in? I’ve got my question in my car. I’ve got so much. Naomi.

 

Naomi: Let’s do it. You throw them at me, dawn. I’m ready.

 

Dawn: So the first question you asked your listeners was, do you trust the justice system? So I’m curious, do you trust the justice system?

 

Naomi: Somebody said something that I feel like. I almost didn’t realise this is how I felt until she said it. One of the people that I box popped said, we have to, because if we don’t, what do we have? And that’s a good point. But when I asked that question at the beginning of the podcast, I think I would have said, yes, I do trust the justice system. It’s never let me down. But then you do open that up a little bit and then you think about the other people that perhaps have been wronged by the justice system. And I don’t even mean just miscarriages of justice, but actually people who have committed horrendous crimes and they’ve had a very lenient sentence, or they’ve got let off on a technicality. I don’t know. I don’t, actually, if I look at it now. No, I don’t. And for many different reasons. But not just a straightforward miscarriage of justice. I think sometimes the other way. It’s really hard, too.

 

Dawn: Yeah. I think before I started podcasting and looking into the stories and covering so many miscarriages of justice, they’re just there. You just assume they’re going to be there for you. If you need them replacing, they’ll be on your side and they’ll do the right thing. But I spoke to the miscarriage of justice organisation, and even though they deal with miscarriages of justice, she still said that. Yes, she does believe in it. It’s flawed, but you’ve got to believe in it.

 

Naomi: Right? Right.

 

Dawn: I’m struggling a wee bit because there must be good ones out there. I know that there are good police officers out there, but, my God, they really make a mess of it sometimes, don’t they?

 

Naomi: Do you know what? I sometimes think like, we’re all human and the police officers are human, and. And I totally understand it’s a stressful job. But I think there are, as we’ve seen recently in the press, dawn, you know, Wayne Cousins, who killed Sarah Everard, and David Carrick, who’s just been done for all those rapes in London, they’re both serving police officers and they. They have committed awful crimes. And I think there’s always going to be bad people in every single industry, you know, nurses, we completely trust them with our lives. But look at what’s happened with Lucy Letbe, you know? So I think, can we ever have a perfect justice system? No. Because it’s made of humans, and humans are emotional beings, and I think the answer is probably no.

 

Dawn: Yeah, and you get that in every job, don’t you? So I guess I’ve had experience. Every job I’ve gone for, there’s always one person that’s just, like, bit of a shit. It’s not quite right. Why would you not have that in? You know, every profession is like you say, we’re just human.

 

Naomi: Absolutely.

 

Dawn: So, yeah, we’ll get further into that. But the other thing you mentioned was the fact that Luke’s teacher expressed a concern because he’d written an essay expressing violence.

 

Naomi: Yes.

 

Dawn: I mean, wow. Wasn’t that really helpful? Was it? I mean, no, I didn’t think much of that.

 

Naomi: No. I mean, do you know what? Around that age. And like I said, I do teach at a college. I have 16 to 19 year olds predominantly, but I do have adults as well. They get to do creative projects and some of the things that they’ve written or they’ve gone out and filmed, because I do broadcast journalism and I do factual television. So a lot of that involves documentary making or it involves news items. And I’ll give them creative freedom. And I’ll say, you know, I’m looking for you to do a sort of in depth documentary on something. You know, it’s completely up to you. The choice is yours, what you do. But here’s the criteria. Syria. And some of the subjects they come back with are really dark. And I know that the creative writing students, they’re in the classroom next to us, and they write stories that, honestly, I mean, God, my podcast seems like a fairy tale compared to some of the stuff they write. I mean, it does give you alarm bells. It does make you think, oh, my God, you know, are you okay? But often I think they’re just pushing boundaries at that time, so I don’t know if it was related or not. But personally. Yeah, I don’t think that is a massive indicator of someone being a killer. Yeah.

 

Dawn: I spoke to a former FBI agent the other week, and she said that.

 

Naomi: I love how you casually just dropped that in.

 

Dawn: But she worked on the shootings in America, and somebody that we. A young boy shot at this school and shot people, and he had done a few pictures the same day, drew a few pictures, and they were very violent as well. So I guess it is difficult to know. Maybe always second guessing. But how would you know? I guess I can’t answer that. But how would you know what you need to be more concerned about? And others just like yours, expressing themselves. I guess it’s. It must be difficult. And looking back, I mean, his school teacher clearly thought, oh, yes, that. That must have been that. But I don’t think you can just, you know, blanket it. All these expressions mean. I don’t think that’s right.

 

Naomi: No, I don’t either.

 

Dawn: Yeah. So when Luke called Jodie’s home, because she’d had. Her mobile was broken and there was no answer the first. The first time. But then he called back again and. Jodie’s stepdad. Yeah, Alan, he answered and he said that, oh, Jodie’s just left. So I’m curious, where was Jodie and where was Alan when Luke phoned the first time? And we weren’t even sure if Jodie had just left. So if Jodie was there, why didn’t she answer the phone? If maybe Alan was in the toilet and couldn’t. If Jodie was there and she just left, I just curious, what was that about?

 

Naomi: We just don’t know. We just don’t know. All we know is that there was an attempt to call the house. Nobody answered. And it could have been that Jodie had already left previously. I don’t. I don’t know what Alan was doing. I know that he had been at work that day, so I’m not sure if he’d just come in, but I have no idea as to why they didn’t answer the phone the first time. And that’s. And that’s ever been addressed.

 

Dawn: Okay. Yeah, that bothered me. Of course. My mind goes, and he’s, what if this and what if that? And maybe Josie was there. Maybe they’re having a fight with it. I’m just going off on.

 

Naomi: The case is full of. Full of what if this one. Yeah, it’s a bit crazy.

 

Dawn: So that was something that I didn’t. Didn’t add up for me there a little bit. So Luke said for his mum to tell Jodie if she turned up at his house to meet him at New battle Abbey.

 

Naomi: Yeah.

 

Dawn: So he must have met his friends there. So he left his house, sat on the wall, and then went and met his friends. So did they not provide an alibi for him?

 

Naomi: They did, but it was. It was past the time of her murder. So the prosecution gave the time of death. I think they said it was around 515. I’d have to go back to my timeline.

 

Dawn: You did. You did.

 

Naomi: It was 515. So I think he didn’t meet his friends until gone 06:00. So in their eyes, he had enough time to commit a murder. But I think for me, what stands out here is that this man. Well, this boy. This boy. I keep saying man because I’ve obviously interviewed him as a man, but I have to really go back 20 years when he was a boy, and he had never had any police record. He’d never had any. Any violent episodes that had ever been reported. And when she was killed, I mean, her murder was absolutely brutal. It was absolutely horrific. So Jodie was found just off a path called the Rhoansdike path, which is a path that leads between two villages, ones where Jodie lives and ones where Luke lives. So it was the obvious route for them to take. Now, on the side of this, there’s a wall, like a stone wall, and on the other side of that wall is a kind of strip of woodland. It’s quite. I wouldn’t say it’s dense, but there’s enough trees there so that when you look into it, you can’t see everything. It’s. It’s got leaves, it’s got branches hanging down. She was found there and she. I mean, God, this is absolutely horrific. And it still. It still penetrates me to my core, when I think about it. So she was 14 years old. She’d been stripped, she was bound, she’d had her breast, one of her breasts cut off. She had been stabbed in the throat, she’d been beaten, she’d been strangled. It was a really horrific murder. But if you take what happened to her and then you put Luke with his friends less than an hour later, that is such a brutal murder. You know, for someone to go from naught to sick, you know, 100 like this, you know, he was actually an animal lover. I know a lot of people say killers, they start with animals. Yeah. And that’s really horrific. And, you know, they might torture a bird or a hamster or something, you know, bugs. And then they kind of progress. Luke was completely the opposite. So he had a. He had horses with his mum, and he also had a dog. And the dog’s very important part of the story, which I’m sure we’ll get onto. But that I just. That was. For me, that was the big thing. And that when he was arrested, there was no DNA from Jodie on him. And I find that so incredibly hard to believe, especially as his hair was dirty and his fingernails were dirty. So how does a 14 year old go from not having killed anyone before or, you know, violently assaulted anyone to doing something like that, that brutality, and then to go and meet his friends and act like nothing’s happened and remain dirty, not have any DNA on him. That, for me was the big, like, okay, wow, there’s something doesn’t quite sit right for me here.

 

Dawn: That did not sit right at all. But we’ll get into that. And also the time of death as well. I want to talk about that as well. I’m not quite sure, but. Yeah, yeah, even that’s 45 minutes. They said it was 05:15 she was likely murdered. And 06:00. He’s with his friends, having a lovely time with no change in his person. Come on. Like you said, that was a brutal murder. How? And nothing was found? That doesn’t make sense. I mean, that’s straight away. Does that make sense to a detective? Why would that be let. Alright.

 

Naomi: I wish I had something that would just have allowed me into the investigators heads just to get a bit of. A bit of clarity and a bit of hindsight. And the investigators who. Who led the investigation, they’ve never done a proper interview where they’ve sat down and kind of given their thought processes and what they were thinking and sort of given a bit of insight into that. They have shied away from media, which is completely their prerogative, and that’s fine. And some of them do still work in the force, so I get it. You know, they’re still employed, but at the same time, it’s really, really hard to comprehend that in its entirety. There’s something off, isn’t there? And 14. I mean, I. You know, I was thinking about 14 year olds. The girl next, who lives next door to me, she’s 15. And I see how they, you know, at 15, you try and act old and you try and act like you, you know, you know all about the world and everything’s great. But actually there are. There are little moments where you realise they’re babies, is still, you know, 14 years, but they still. If something scared them, they still run to their parents or their caregivers, you know, and she’s a year older than that. So I try and put that back, you know, put her to 14 when I knew her and. Yeah, it all feels very weird to me.

 

Dawn: Yeah. I was going to ask you if you knew of any of them. The detectives were still working in the police, so. Yeah, that’s interesting that they’ve had their work basically dragged through mud for years.

 

Naomi: Yeah.

 

Dawn: I would love to have spoken to one of the detectives, like you said, just to get an insight. How do they. There doesn’t seem to be any question, this is who was guilty and that’s what we’re sticking with. And I wonder, do they believe that wholeheartedly, you know, they might narrow mindedly blinkered, just, yeah, this is it. And they’re going to make everything fit with it because they believe wholeheartedly in their guts, if you like, that this person’s guilty, do they know something we don’t? Did they get a gut feeling and their gut was wrong that day? Or is it a case of just somebody is better than nobody?

 

Naomi: It does. It does make. It does make you question that.

 

Dawn: Yeah, I’d love to know the answer to that. How can you live with yourself otherwise, that you’ve done this?

 

Naomi: Oh, yeah. Unless, you know, I mean, what I have thought all along is, what if he is guilty? Like, what if he is? But I think the podcast wasn’t actually necessarily about is he guilty or not? It’s actually about the way the investigation was conducted and that there should be an independent review into how that was conducted because there were failures.

 

Dawn: Agree? And, yeah, we can’t know. You and I can’t know. The only people that know are the murderer, if him or not, and Jodie. But after you put forward all the evidence, there was nothing. It was all circumstantial. I don’t believe you should have been convicted. There should have been more. That’s what I think your podcast has done. It’s just laid to bear the facts.

 

Naomi: But I’m glad that came across because I think it was ultimately collating a lot of things. There was a lot about this case and there always is. I mean, murder investigations are never straightforward. There’s always a complexity. I think because these were two minors without any previous and they didn’t have this turbulent relationship. You know, they’d only been going out a few months.

 

Dawn: It wasn’t like it was only a few months.

 

Naomi: Yeah, yeah, I know. And actually, I think a lot of people said that they kind of had this as a, you know, when you hear about it, you think, oh, God, they’ve probably been together since they were like eleven, and it’s probably been really turbulent and all their friends have probably got an opinion on it. And actually there was none of that. So. Yes.

 

Dawn: Yeah, no, I was surprised. I don’t know why. I thought it was like this big love and something had gone wrong. Four months. That’s not. That’s no time at all. So back to when Jodie’s body was found by Luke. And then. So he said that Luke called the police, but he said to the police that the body’s been found, but he didn’t know it was Jodie. He just said a body. Then Stephen Kelly phones the police and he’s in a state and he’s shouting at the phone that it’s Jodie, and he starts swearing. So how did Stephen Kelly know it was Jodie, but Luke didn’t?

 

Naomi: Well, they both went through the wall. So the podcast is called through the wall?

 

Dawn: Yeah.

 

Naomi: So Luke was already out with his dog, Mia. So I sort of mentioned that before that, you know, Mia was. She was a big. She’s a big part of this because she was a trained tracker dog.

 

Dawn: So Mia, he got Mia and then he wanted to train her as a tracker dog. Was it a police officer was training him or something?

 

Naomi: It was. I think he was a former something. Whether it was the military or the police, I can’t remember. But, yes, she had been trained by somebody. Yeah.

 

Dawn: Why did he want to do that? Just out of interest, weren’t you?

 

Naomi: He was very outdoorsy, the whole family was, but he had a knife to go fishing and camping and all of that kind of stuff. So it was just one of those things, I think, that he was interested in small town Scotland. What can you do? You can utilise the beautiful scenery and countryside that you’re in, and that was part of it. So. And, you know, that kind of going back to how Luke loved animals here, that they’d actually got Mia properly trained, so she was brilliant and he gave her a command and he sort of said, find Jodie. So they were walking along, and as he was walking towards Jodie’s house, so going to Roan’s dyke path, he came across Alice, who was Jodie’s grandmother, Janine, who was Jodie’s sister, and then Stephen Kelly, who was Janine’s boyfriend, and they then decided to go back the way that Luke had gone, just in case they thought he’d missed anything. And I. Do you know what? I kind of understand that, because he was full. And I’m just thinking now, I’m just putting my. Because I’ve got kids. If my daughter was walking on her own and she’d been missing, and her 14 year old boyfriend, who would have been in year nine at school, if we think about it in that way, in year nine, walking towards me, I would probably say, do you know what? I’m a responsible adult. We’ve done this direction. Let’s go back. And so they went back and they went up past this v shaped hole in the wall. So it was kind of. The wall had cracked and it had come away. And on the. On the thumbnail of my podcast, you can see it’s Luke standing in front of the. The v. And they sort of had to kind of actually climb over and through the wall. And it was Luke and Stephen that went together. And Luke, at first sight, he was like, oh, my God, is that like a mannequin? He saw a leg. And then Stephen went over. So that’s her sister, his boyfriend. And then he screamed, and then Alice went over. So that was the grandmother. And she cradled Jodie, which I totally get, like, that’s your granddaughter. And you see her in that state, of course you are going to cradle her. Luke started off on the phone. He was giving them directions and then that when they arrived, they were there under three pieces of false information.

 

Dawn: So where did they get that from? That was something.

 

Naomi: So when he. They hadn’t realised that they had met up, I just think he hadn’t mentioned that nobody else was with him. So he was there. They thought he was on a bike, because he usually travelled with a bike. And when Jodie’s parents had reported him missing, I think they had assumed that he might have had a bike and that he had been the only one to find the body. But of course, he wasn’t. There was. There was four of them and the tracker dog. So that was really, really. It’s quite big information, because the reason that they said they took Luke is because he found the body. It’s worth saying here as well, that Luke. Should I describe what Luke looked like? Because I think it’s quite an important part of the story. So Luke, I guess by nowadays, descriptions would have been like, a skater boy esque. So he had, like, a band, he had, like, long hair, wore bandanas, wore, like, you know, black t shirts with, like, rock stars on them, and he had parker jackets and, you know, it. I mean, to be honest, nowadays, I wouldn’t. I would look up and actually, I don’t think I would have done then, but this was a small village in Scotland, small town Scotland, so I. I can understand why people might have thought, oh, he looks a bit different. Exactly, exactly. And what they did, actually, first was they kept Luke with them and they asked him to show them where the body was. Now, I’m not a police detective, but if a child has come to me and said, you know, there’s a body over there and it’s. It’s really bad. I wouldn’t re traumatise that child by bringing them back at that moment. They didn’t know anything, you know, so that, for me, was a really big red flag that they asked him to go back and show them, because it’s not, like I said, it’s not a really dense forest. This is a strip of woodland. So you can. You can really clearly see the body. You know, you’re in policemen, you know, you can go and have a look.

 

Dawn: Your look should have been able to stand at the other side of the wall and just say, it’s through there, and should.

 

Naomi: Through the wall. Exactly. Exactly, exactly that. So that was another thing that I just. I didn’t think was, you know, very good. And then they took. They took all of them, the. The whole search party. They all went to a local high school where they had sort of cornered off the car park and used that as a meeting point. And there was a point where Luke and Stephen Kelly, Janine’s boyfriend, were sat down on a curb smoking. Family had obviously were starting to hear what had happened. They were all turning up at this point. There was a lot of grieving, there was a lot of crying. And then Luke was asked to get into a police car. But the rest of them, who had found the body and remember, Alice had cradled Jodie’s body. They were left there to kind of mingle with the family and grieve and support each other. But Luke was put in the back of a police car and he was taken to the station. And this is within, like. Like a very short period of time. A very, very short period of time. I need to go back and look at the exact times. But I think within the hour of finding her body and him being taken away. And they said that it was really to get his clothes and put them into forensic evidence. But again, I mean, why wouldn’t they do that with all four? That was what really, really confused me.

 

Dawn: But then Stephen Kelly phoned to see that he found a body as well. So why were they under the assumption that it was only looked and they’re saying, oh, that’s why we took him away to get his clothes. Was it a lack of communication, do you think?

 

Naomi: I think it was because when Jodie’s mother reported Jodie missing, she had been under the assumption that she’d been with Luke all night, so she’d sent a text message to Luke’s phone, because Jodie’s was broken, saying, you know, I think it was like, right, toad, say goodbye to Luke. You’re going to be grounded, you know, of that kind of nature. And that’s when he rang and said, she’s not with me. But I think, you know, they’d obviously gone to the police and said, you know, she was meeting her boyfriend, his name’s Luke Mitchell, and. And then he finds her. I think that is the. The correlation. And they’ve just gone with that narrative.

 

Dawn: Okay, but they just kept going with that narrative, didn’t they? There was no, they did, they did.

 

Naomi: And I think it probably did. You know, the fact that Stephen Kelly that night, you know, had been with Janine and, and Alice, you know, they had all travelled out together to try and find her. So Luke was always the one that had been in that search party in the beginning and he had seen them along the path. So, yeah, he was. He was definitely different from the. Treated different from the rest of them.

 

Dawn: And by them doing that in front of the family as well, that’s putting a target. I mean, what must they have been thinking? They were with them when they found the body. They’re not getting taken away, so straight away your mind would start working. So they were putting a target on his back by the family as well.

 

Naomi: And the absolute shock and grief that they must have felt. I had a bereaved last week, I was telling you about it and I. And it’s only when you have a bereavement that that shock and that grief really hits you again. You know, it really kind of. It makes you think about life. It makes you think of so much life. I can’t imagine that being your child or your sister or your granddaughter and also just having, you know, absolutely no answers. But hold on. You know, she was out. She’s just been out there. Boyfriend, apparently, all night. You know, how are we here? How are we now? In a car park speaking to police officers, giving statements because our child has been murdered. I think everyone’s brains must have just been completely frazzled, but including Luke’s as well, because that was his girlfriend.

 

Dawn: And again, if you think if he didn’t do it, you know, if he didn’t do it, this poor lad, he would be devastated. And he’s not allowed to get in touch with his mum straight away, she thought, and he’s just taken away. I mean, God, at 14 years old, you’d be shitting her servants, you know?

 

Naomi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Dawn: That wasn’t handled very well at all. I mean, and, okay, he wanted to get his clothes, but there’s ways to do it, isn’t there?

 

Naomi: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, they should. That should have been priority to get all of the search party and anyone that went up to Jodie, especially, you know, to take their clothes for forensic evidence, it was very clear from the way that she was left that this was a horrific murder. You know, she didn’t bind herself, so that is how that should have been treated from the get go. And it was. And.

 

Dawn: And especially her gran, you know, Alice, because she was gradling her, so she could have potentially have evidence on her as well if there was anything to find. Yeah, that was. Yeah, that was a bit of a mistake.

 

Naomi: Yeah.

 

Dawn: Naomi.

 

Naomi: Oh, it just. It does, yeah. It can take you into really, really dark place. And, you know, every moment I was doing this podcast, I just, you know, I never sort of wanted to lose sight of Jodie’s face, you know, because this happened to her and it’s just utterly horrific.

 

Dawn: She.

 

Naomi: She did not deserve what happened to her. And if it. If it was Luke, which, you know, again, I just. I can never say I think he’s innocent. I think he’s guilty because I just don’t know. And I don’t think I’d say that about anyone. But if it wasn’t, you know, whoever’s out is out, is still out there, and that’s terrifying.

 

Dawn: Yeah. And that’s what I mean about the police. I mean, surely they’re in that job because they want to maybe see justice done, so perhaps they’ve not got justice. Is that not important? Two years. I mean, I know it’s all about money and all that now, but, God, that should be really rent and forever, shouldn’t it?

 

Naomi: Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.

 

Dawn: And of course, Luke was, when he got to the station by himself, before his mum got there, stripped and everything taken off him and put into a paper forensic suit.

 

Naomi: Yeah, yeah. They had actually seen. He had actually seen his mum. So as they were driving in the police car, they’d seen Corinne. She had been walking towards the station and the car had pulled up and she’d been trying to call Luke on the phone and the police officer actually turned the phone off and then he was like, well, you know, I want to speak to my mum. So then the police officer turned the phone back on and rang her and said, you know, we’re taking your boy to this, to the police station. Jodie’s dead and she’s then running towards the police station. Remember, this is small town Scotland. This is a tiny area and they’ve passed her on the way, they stop. They stop. And then they tell her that they can’t get her in because of potential contamination issues. So she’s left to run. And she did run up to the police station and, yeah, they weren’t reunited for a few hours, so that’s, you know, that’s pretty shocking.

 

Dawn: Do you know, is that. I mean, he’s only 14. He’s a child. Is when they’re. When they try to get the clothes off you and are you supposed to be by yourself? Are you not allowed to have a representative with your family member or an appropriate adult? Is that procedure?

 

Naomi: I mean, you are. You’re just supposed to have somebody else in the room.

 

Dawn: Okay. Yeah.

 

Naomi: Which I believe, if I go back, I’m sure there was two officers. But again, I mean, there was no legal representation at this point, which, I mean, in the grand scheme of things. Did he need it at the time? No, he wasn’t arrested. He was being questioned, and Luke was cooperating. I mean, if that had been my child, I would be absolutely fuming. Because at that point, you know, they really could not have known, you know, this was an hour or so after they could not have known anything, you know, so that that was what really sort of got him stuck in my mind.

 

Dawn: Yeah. And the knew she was coming, you know, just wait for her. And they knew she was obviously there, but that’s a horrible way to treat even bad enough Luke. But the mom as well, that was episode one, so there was a few interesting things in there. Anything else you want to say about episode one?

 

Naomi: No, I just think that was really, like, what I tried to do with that is just set the same. And actually just to kind of open up the story a little bit more from what they may have seen and just to personalise Jodie as well, and to offer some sort of personalisation to Luke as well, just so people could know a little bit more about who they were, because I think that is really important here. And, you know, every time you see a media headline or whatever, you do get lost in the fact that they were children. And I can’t say this enough, and I’m sorry if this bores everyone, but it’s. But they were kids. They were kids. And this is what’s really, really. It just baffles me, the whole thing. But episode two is, uh, is quite the ride.

 

Dawn: You kind of eased us in gently ish in episode one, and then it takes off.

 

Naomi: I remember seeing a review after they’d listened to one episode, and they were like, yeah, you know, I like it. I like her style and I like what she’s doing. But actually it’s taken, it’s taken a long time to get into the story. I thought she wait and then they came back and they were like actually scratching 100 miles an hour. And it does, this case is it does. From now on there’s no rest breaks. It’s pretty full on, isn’t it?

 

Dawn: It is just every episode is like what? You’re really good at that leaving on a cliffhanger.

 

Naomi: Well, yeah. I mean, do you know what, you know, sometimes as tv producers, podcast producers, you know, you want people to come back and follow through the story. So you do have to make hopefully an ethical and moral kind of cliffhanger hanger. I didn’t need to. It was about choosing what piece of information I was going to end on because there was just so many.

Scottish Murders is a production of Cluarantonn

 

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Hosted by Dawn
Special Guest: Naomi Channell
Produced by Erin Ferguson

 

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